One of the hardest things a business owner faces is setting the price for their products, especially if you are the product! Janene Liston moved from California to Switzerland and has taken her career expertise and created a business advising small & medium sized businesses on their pricing and how to charge what you are worth. And that’s why she calls herself The Pricing Lady!
Janene is offering free videos and checklists here:
03:29 – What is your business, who do you help and why the name?
05:26 – A certain mindset or profit calculations?
09:14 – Does it make a difference between service or product-based businesses?
10:09 – The journey from California to Switzerland
15:22 – Struggles as the business got started
26:00 – Tips for starting a service-based business
28:35 – Future goals and plans
31:19 – Which group of people would you like to mentor?
33:19 – How to get in contact with the pricing lady
Click to Read Full Transcript...
So my next guest has a passion for everything to do with pricing, being able to charge really what you’re worth, being able to add value to a client and know how to communicate it and for her pricing is everything. In fact she calls herself the Pricing Lady, so please I want to welcome our next guest her name is Janene Liston and she comes from California originally, now lives in Basel in Switzerland. Let’s have a listen to Janene.
Alex: Hi Janene, welcome to the show, absolute pleasure to have you on.
Janene: Hi Alex, thanks for having me here.
Alex: Okay, so Janene before we get into talking more about your business and about your story, I’ve just got a question for you, so what on earth inspired you to do stand-up comedy about men not being able to find the butter in the fridge? You know I’m talking about a Toastmasters speech you did many years ago.
Janene: [Laugh] Yes, actually that’s funny that you bring that you up. Actually, it was a conversation I was having with colleagues over lunch one day, I was on a business trip in Sweden I think and we were talking about the differences between men and women and I told them at the end of lunch, I said, ‘you know someday I’m going to write a speech about this at Toastmasters’ and they said, ‘well when you do let us know’ and it was almost four years later. [Laugh] But I was determined to do it and my Father is going to love me for bringing this up, but I remember my parents always having that conversation where my Dad’s like, ‘Joanne where did you put the butter?’. She screamed back, ‘it’s in the fridge Bob’ [laugh] and the rest is just yes, it came through trying to put a little levity and humour into that daily occurrence that I grew up with.
Alex: So I watched the videos on YouTube and is it harder to do a comedy-based speech than a non-comedy based one, I mean you’re bringing humour in there which is always tricky isn’t it?
Janene: Yes for me it was actually a real learning process, I had this belief if you will that I wasn’t funny or that I couldn’t be on stage, or that I didn’t even know how. So for me it was actually to push myself a bit outside of my comfort zone and I think one of the biggest challenges in it is of course of the timing. So, a lot of it isn’t just what you say, it’s how you say it, right? As well as then being patient enough to wait for the audience to actually laugh and enjoy that moment, especially with Toastmasters because you’re timed and if you go over seven minutes and 30 seconds then you’re disqualified. I came in at that event, which there were 400 people in the audience at that event, I came in at seven minutes and 28 seconds.
Alex: Oh that is brutal, I mean of course I do disagree with the whole premise because I actually do think that my wife hides the milk and the butter, so I don’t actually agree with that, but so never mind.
Janene: She loves you anyhow Alex. [Laugh]
Alex: Yes, well,
Alex: So hey listen, you’re from California and you’re now in Basel and we’re going to talk about that in a second how you got here. But, I just love the way you know you introduce yourself, you call yourself the ‘pricing lady’ which I think is a fantastic way of talking about yourself and your brand. So, why that name and what is the business that you’ve created around that?
What is your business, who do you help and why the name?
Janene: Right, so actually the name found me, I didn’t necessarily find it and it came from years in the corporate world, when I was in the corporate world I would go and do projects in different countries and I’d meet people, new people and I would introduce myself, ‘Oh hi, I’m Janene, I’m here for the pricing project. So nice to meet you’ and all the time they would say, ‘Oh yes, I know you, you’re the pricing lady’ [laugh] and literally one day when I was struggling with you know how do I call, do I call myself a coach or a consultant and none of those things appealed to me. Though why not just own what people have been calling me all along and that’s how I decided to start calling myself ‘the pricing lady’.
Alex: Fantastic, so I mean what kind of business is it, what is it that you do and who do you typically help?
Janene: Right, typically my clients are small business owners and I work with clients in two different categories. One are those who are business owners, generally smaller businesses who are struggling with the topic of pricing. They may not even realise that there are people out there who can help them with this topic and I get that all the time. People go, ‘oh you can specialise in that?’
Then the other group of people that I help are smaller medium sized businesses who are looking to improve their revenue and their profitability and generally I help clients achieve more profit or revenue, both in most cases. We get usually somewhere between 2-12% increase in their profitability and we do that through professionalising their pricing.
Alex: Fantastic, I think a lot of small businesses will need that kind of help. Now I love this headline that I’ve found on your website and you talk about, ‘speak, believe and charge your worth’ so for me that begs the question for you know entrepreneurs that are out there. Is there a mindset you need around pricing, or is it all just sort of Excel and profit calculations?
A certain mindset or profit calculations?
Janene: Yes, so I’m a big believer that pricing, the power, the real power behind pricing is actually found in the communication and the psychology behind it. I strongly believe that generally we spend too much time focused on ‘do I have the perfect number, is this the right price?’ and not enough time asking ourselves what can the price do for my business. How is it connecting with my customers, what is it saying to them? How is it steering them, because quite frankly our prices also can steer customer behaviour. So, for me the real important part comes from how we’re communicating with and around our prices.
The mindset that you talk about I also think that a profit mindset is a smart mindset to have. Where as a lot people will say, ‘oh’ or they feel if they focus on pricing or money or profit in their business that they’re greedy, but to me that doesn’t, it doesn’t make sense. None of us started our businesses in order to go broke, we started businesses to earn a living doing something we love. In order to earn that living we need to create the space first, else to be okay with that and to own up to the fact that is part of our objective and without a profit mindset we struggle then to be able to do that.
Alex: I think one of the very common issues you find with service-based businesses, you know solopreneurs let’s say, selling their expertise is that they do have a problem with their self-worth which gets reflected in their pricing. I mean you must see that as well, it gets really quite deep doesn’t it?
Janene: Yes it does and I was this morning actually I was listening to something, a podcast I think it was, I forget which one it was, I listen to a few. The guy was talking about how we feel that we’re taking something from someone. He said, ‘what if what we thought about it was that that person is the conduit through which I am able to earning a living’ rather than we are taking something from them. It is an exchange, it’s an exchange of value and money, but what if that person was actually the conduit through which I’m receiving my living and earning that money, and I thought that was an interesting take on this worthiness thing and how we go about relating to earning money in our businesses.
Alex: I mean are there tell-tale signs for you know in a small business owner that needs this sort of help? Can you tell when someone really needs to reach out and ask for help in this area?
Janene: What’s interesting is a lot of times clients will come to me and when we sit down and start talking, the first thing they’re doing is trying to convince me that they need to lower their prices. [Laugh]
Alex: The other way!
Janene: Right, and so if you’re sitting there and you’re working on an offer for a client and you’re coming up with excuses to lower your price, it’s a good time to stop and take a step back, maybe call a friend or someone so that you can walk-through and discuss that with them. This is even, I’ve even seen this more than once repeatedly, that they’re delivering more value than their competition and they’re still looking for reasons to decrease the price. So really if that’s what’s happening in your mind or as you’re going about setting prices then it’s a good time to stop and pause and see if you can get some help with that. Maybe that is right thing to do, but quite often it’s not.
Alex: I mean are you seeing any differences between service-based businesses or product-based businesses in this area, does it make a difference?
Does it make a difference between service or product-based businesses?
Janene: I think that this topic of worthiness comes in to play in a much stronger way in service-based businesses, because somehow it’s tied to us. Where as with a product you have a little bit of separation between you know the individual, the product and the money thing.
In service-based businesses it feels like you know it’s a definition, the prices of definition of your worthiness. But it’s not necessarily, it is the definition of a value that you can bring, but of course that value is you and that client working together on something, it always is, yes.
Alex: So tell us then about your journey here. You’re from near Sacramento in California, and you ended up now in Switzerland, so how did that you know how did that journey go for you?
The journey from California to Switzerland
Janene: Yes, so I’ve had a little bit I guess of adventurous spirit [laugh] over my life. So, I went to school in San Obispo, California, which is about five hours from where my family live. Which, for Europeans is a bit shocking to go so far away; for California that’s normal. After University I just had the idea I wanted to live on the East Coast and just because I could [laugh] it’s ike –
Alex: You went from coast-to-coast.
Janene: Yes, I’ve never seen the East Coast really, I hadn’t, I think I’d been to Orlando and to Boston by that time in my life and it just seemed like a cool thing to do. I could see it and experience it and whatever so I launched a campaign and found a job, I moved to Connecticuit and at the time I was working as an engineer, so I was actually I studied architectural engineering. Decided to leave that while I was there and got a job with the company that makes lightning is what I tell people, we made lightning because we make hyvaldig test measurement equipment, it was kind of boring to say. [Laugh]
Alex: Lightning’s better!
Janene: Exactly, and that company actually bought a Swiss competitor and I was leaving the company and when the boss found out he came back and said, ‘will you stay if I can offer you a job in Switzerland?’ and I said, ‘no’. I said no because I had already accepted another job and I felt that my word meant something. A week later I found out that it meant a little bit less than I thought [laugh] because I changed my mind.
Alex: You’re allowed to do that.
Janene: Yes, I just, for me it was a very difficult decision and was a very difficult call to make to the company who I accepted the offer with and tell them I wasn’t coming. But in the end it was important life experience that I just couldn’t pass-up. The opportunity to see Switzerland, live in and see Europe, to learn another language, it was just something I couldn’t say no to in the end. I would never have thought it was possible.
Alex: So you ended up in Basel?
Janene: I did, I did I ended up in Basel, it was quite the experience. It was a, I think I was the first ex-pat the company had ever had and might have been the last as well [laugh] it was a relatively small company and so we learned a lot of valuable lessons together [laugh]. You know they were supportive as they could be; I didn’t speak any German when I arrived, well no, I take it back. I spoke two phrases, both of which were not terribly useful [laugh] but I learnt it.
Alex: But fluent I imagine? I mean now you –
Janene: I’m fluent, I have my passport, I got my passport last year and I’m doing my first presentation as ‘Janene the pricing lady’ in German next week.
Alex: Wow, fantastic.
Janene: Quite exciting, yes.
Alex: Fantastic, well let’s see if they have the same mentality or mindset around this as we do. So, then you obviously quit, you left that lovely, safe and secure job and started your own business. So what was the catalyst for that, and what were you trying to achieve by doing that?
Janene: Right. So let me just go back a step. When they tried to send me back, I quit that company to stay in Switzerland and after seven months of living on friends sofas I ended up with a job as a global pricing manager and that was how I actually got into pricing specifically.
Then I accepted a job later on with another company and went through a burnout and when I went through the burnout I was trying to figure out, okay, what is it I need to learn from this? Because obviously there was something I needed to learn and part of that was around values and making sure that my values and the values of the organisations I work with or for are in alignment, as well as self-care was probably a big lesson that I learned.
I had talked about having my own business in the past and actually the last career move I made in the corporate world, part of the reason I shifted industries, because I made a big industry shift, was to see how transferable this pricing stuff was to different industries. After the burnout I thought, ‘okay, either I need to stop talking about doing this and just go get myself a job again, or I need to put my money where my mouth is’ sort of speak and start the business.
I’ve heard people talk about it, I’ve seen how people struggle with the topic of pricing in their businesses and I know that I can help with that and I just couldn’t pass up. Again, it was just an opportunity I had to give it a try. I had to go out there and see how I could you know serve people in this way and help them you know have profitable businesses that they love.
Alex: Fantastic, so I mean I’m sure it wasn’t all plain sailing then as you started. So what was the struggles that you found out as you got started?
Struggles as the business got started
Janene: Yes, the listeners can’t see the strange faces I’m making, [laugh] but no it wasn’t always…wasn’t and it isn’t all easy. I look at it this way, it’s been one of the most expansive things I’ve ever done, in terms of I love to learn things. So in doing this I have learned things that I never imagined I would have learned. Parts of my expanding and my understanding of pricing and how I can help people with that and then other parts of it are simply you know I never built a website before, you know and I did that, and I enjoyed it most of the time. [Laugh] Or, I joined Facebook for the first time about six months ago, I never had Facebook at all but decided that you know for the business it was an avenue I needed to explore.
So, I’m learning all about how to utilise that and so it’s just been this great expansive project that has sometimes been quite painful, yes.
Alex: I forgot to mention at the beginning, I mean you do meet interesting people don’t you when you become an entrepreneur and I have to tell the story about how we met, because I think that’s hilarious.
Alex: It was a mutual friend of ours, Melitta Campbell who was also on this show earlier and she said to me, ‘Alex, you need to speak to someone, she’s called Janene, she’s the pricing lady and I’ll introduce you to her but you need to meet her.’ I said, ‘oh okay, well listen I’ll, thanks for doing that. Anyway, I’m on the train right now, I’m going up to Zürich for a conference’. She said, ‘okay’ and we hung up.
Then I get to this conference and I sit down and then the person presenting it tells us to stand up and shake the hand with the person behind you and say to them, ‘where have you been all my life?’ and then you turn around and say, ‘hello’ and I say, ‘hello’ and then I look at your name Janene on your lapel and I’m thinking Janene, is that Janene the pricing lady? So, I don’t know what brought us together but somehow it happened within the space of someone suggesting it and the universe brought us together so and that’s how we are. So it’s fantastic, we meet all kind of people in this business.
Janene: Very serendipitous that’s for sure.
Alex: Yes, it’s amazing. Now, one of the things that I think you mentioned to me beforehand at the beginning it can be lonely and you know you used the expression ‘crickets’ you know, hearing crickets in the background in the early days of getting clients. Is that something, how did that make you feel, when you got going?
Janene: Of course its, well the way it made me feel, is I felt frustrated by it, because I felt like I was doing the right things and that it was a reflection that I was doing something wrong, you know. That like many others I’m very good at pointing the finger towards myself [laugh] and things and when things that I’ve had to learn and still probably I’m learning in many contexts is that it’s not necessarily a reflection of doing something right or wrong. You know, I think part of starting a business is trying different things and seeing where and how you get traction in different ways and sometimes it’s the message, sometimes it’s where the message is. Sometimes it’s how the message is delivered and finding the combination of those things that works and it’ll work to different degrees in different contexts is I think part of the challenge of any business, not just entrepreneurs. But of course with time then you learn where to focus your attention and how to deliver those messages and so on and so forth.
Alex: I mean did you ever feel like quitting, I mean was there a lot at stake for you?
Janene: I of course I’ve thought, ‘okay, I’ve had the question’ no I never felt like quitting but I’ve had the thought, ‘is this still where I want to be?’ and the answer I was having the time of my life [laugh] right? I’m not ready to give in or move away from this yet, that’s I think how I would put it. But have I ever sat here and thought, ‘okay I’m just going to give up on this?’ no not yet, not yet. [Laugh] It takes a lot for me to give up on something [laugh] which is part of the reason I went through the burnout that I went through because I wasn’t willing to step away from it, I was optimistic that it would work out so that’s something that I need to be aware of, but no I wouldn’t say quit yet.
Alex: So what’s kept you going then? So you’ve had support along the way, what’s been the thing, you know the few things that have really kept you going on this journey?
Janene: Right, so part of it is intrepidness, or determination. You know, so I just I’m determined that this part of my vision of my life in the future.
So, part of the reason I made that shift from the corporate world was because of how I want to live my life and be able to give back more, rather than just work, work, work. In order to do that, sure I may able to find that in the corporate world, but I’m not convinced that it will bring me the same joy that I have found in being an entrepreneur.
Alex: Did you get support along the way?
janene: Absolutely and I think that that’s a really important point. I know it is difficult, we don’t always have money to get the support we want. If you do, it’s important to make a decision about what you’re willing to invest and then figure out where to invest that money, right?
So, I’ve had coaches along the way, I’ve been in a mentoring program and recently I’ve started hiring for example, I hired somebody to help me build a sales funnel and I think that these things are important in terms of at least for me, because I like doing things. Like I liked building the website, it was fun, however, at the same time if I continue doing that for the rest of my days then I’m not serving clients. So, at some point I have to start making the shift there as well and that’s an important thing for me to remember.
Alex: So, you’ve got family and friends who are sort of giving you encouragement boosts –
Alex: – and you’ve got coaches giving you more practical advice, I mean the two different, both necessary? Are there differences between these different ways of being supported?
Janene: Yes, I think that I’m a big believer and I know not everybody feels this way, so I use coaches generally who aren’t from my circle of friends already. Doesn’t mean that I can’t, but I like the input that I get from people when they don’t have that sort of long experience with me. I find it more valuable, so you know kind of their understanding of me is more innocent in a sense [laugh] and they can see things that aren’t a reflection of what they see day-to-day if we were friends or colleagues before.
I think that sometimes it’s helpful as well to get feedback from friends, I’m also quite deliberate in where I seek that feedback from as well. So, it’s not about getting feedback from everyone, I think you probably have an opinion on this as well, there are a lot of people who have opinions about what I do, [laugh] right, everyday. That doesn’t mean that I have to use all of that feedback, that doesn’t mean all of it is good information, it doesn’t mean that I’m ready to hear it all either. So, it’s also I think one of the things about being an entrepreneur is so many people have input that they feel inclined to give you and being able to sift through that in a way that supports you and doesn’t demotivate you.
Alex: So do you get people sort of coming up to you and saying, ‘oh I think you should do this to your website and oh I think you should do that to your…?’ do you get this volunteered remarks all the time, what do you say to them?
Janene: I mean of course I’ve had a couple of people who don’t like the ‘pricing lady’ they don’t think it serves me. I’ve had a couple of people recently tell me I should be ‘Janene the pricing queen’ and stuff. [Laugh]
Alex: Ah so you get a promotion, okay!
Janene: You know and yes, it’s I think that there’s always a time and place for feedback and I know I can be guilty of it too. I mean I like to help people and I know that usually when people are offering their feedback or their advice, they’re doing it out of you know generosity and kindness, not necessarily to be mean. [Laugh] But, how I take it, you know sometimes I may take it in a way that is more painful than it needs to be.
Alex: Well, one of the things that a lot of people fear the most that is not being talked about [laugh] and not creating you know interest and you know you’re not having that problem. So, I think it’s brilliant, so you know I think you’re a great name and it’s great if it puts some people off because it means that you’re I think you’re doing the job well.
Janene: Yes, it’s, yes I used to say that when I was in the corporate world and I was working on pricing, a lot of times I was between the headquarters and the local entities and you know I joked that as long as people were equally unhappy or equally happy that I was probably you know doing things well. But, if one side felt like you know they were ecstatic over the other, then maybe I had done something [laugh] that I needed to revisit.
Alex: It’s a bit like, I think it’s a bit like pricing actually. Someone said to me, ‘look, if you get a 100% sales conversion on a particular event that means your pricing is too low’ so be a bit higher and so you know have to remember that.
Janene: That tension is good because it tells you something. Now, if everybody is telling you it’s too expensive, then that you know that’s different. But it may not mean that the price is too high either, it may just mean that the way the value has been communicated isn’t right for that target group.
Alex: Absolutely. So, what have you you know picked up as lessons on the way here that could be useful for others, if looking to follow in that path you know, to become a service-based business or to you know take their skills, knowledge they’ve got from the corporate context and apply it into a new business. What would you say as a maybe two or three tips?
Tips for starting a service-based business
Janene: I think that the number one tip, and I’ll say this one first because I do think it is the most important. The person that I was when I exited the corporate world is not the person I needed to be to have a successful business. Not that there’s anything wrong with that person, it’s just that there were things that I needed to learn, things that I needed to do differently that I didn’t know about yet. So, it’s this great journey of self-discovery and it’s not always easy but that doesn’t mean it’s bad, right? So, it’s kind of be prepared to go on this journey of self-discovery and open yourself up and lean into it once in a while [laugh] when it’s painful.
The second thing I would say is seek that support, you know go out and get that help. It’s easy for me to sit here in my little room and work away on my computer and do things. But, my customers are not sitting here in the room with me [laugh] and I need to go out and actively be apart of the communities that they’re in, in order to come in contact with them.
So, sorry I launched into the third one on the way of talking about the second one. But, in order to get that support that I needed I needed to go out and be present in other places and new places. Until I made that shift I never attempted an entrepreneurs group in any context or startup even, those things weren’t even on my radar when I –
Alex: You weren’t even on Facebook. [Laugh]
Janene: I wasn’t even on Facebook, I know. [Laugh]
Alex: Goodness me.
Janene: Or Twitter for that matter and then yes, so then the third one is really around going where your audience is and maybe that’s Facebook, maybe that’s a local event and I think the biggest challenge that I see people having in pricing is that they’re trying to sell everything to everyone and if you are clear about your target customer and where they’re hanging out, then you can go hang out there with them and be there to support them when they need that help.
Alex: So very helpful, very useful. I hope some of the people listening will take those bits of advice onboard. So what about you then, what about the future, what goals have you’ve got? I know you mentioned to me before that you know volunteering is something very close to your heart. But, between that side and also the business side, you know what are you planning?
Future goals and plans
Janene: Right, so yes, my longer term goal for my life is to be able integrate doing a month or two of volunteer work every year and part of setting up the business, so an important part of the business plan in the context of that is developing a stream of passive income and the flexibility to be able to take that time off. On to that extent, I’m working on getting one of my signature courses up on a platform, so that next year I can start offering it as an online program as well for those people for who that’s suitable. That’s very exciting and important to me, I love teaching face-to-face classes and that’s actually my preferred way to date, of doing so. However, I also know that that you know limits to some extent the people who I can reach and also limits my ability to earn passive income, at least from that program, so that’s something I’d like to get up there.
The other way that I’m expanding is in doing more work with those small to medium sized businesses and helping them out on their journey’s to grow their profit and their sales. For me, that again is a step outside of my comfort zone in many ways, because I have to be outside and more present. Those people are not generally hanging out on Facebook, some are, but generally not and part of the other reason that that’s a challenge for me is because it is in Switzerland, I’m in Switzerland. It is a German-speaking community, [laugh] and so that also means that I’m taking this leap into you know doing more work not in English.
Alex: I mean one of the topics I absolutely love and that I help other people with is this whole idea of creating you know scaleable business, a scaleable service business and I think you’re absolutely right. Because if you, I mean you have it, in a way you have it as your duty to do this because that’s the way that you’re going to be able impact more people by doing stuff online, by approaching people outside the country. But also it’s going to give you the freedom and independence to give back and to do the you know the volunteering work you want to do. So, I admire that, that’s fantastic, so I wish you the best of luck with that.
I have one question which I ask a lot of guests and that is around, you know if you were giving back and you’ve already touched on this already a little bit. But, if you had to choose a group of people that you would like to mentor or help, you know and to share your experiences with, are there any particular groups of people that you think that you’d like to?
Which group of people would you like to mentor?
Janene: Yes, I’ve always had a soft spot in my heart for children and so I started babysitting even when I was 12 years old [laugh] because earning quite a income as babysitter in my teen years and –
Alex: How was your pricing, were you…?
Janene: It was pretty good actually, I didn’t know that [laugh]…there were a couple of families who I always got along with the children, but other babysitters found that the children challenging and the parents valued the fact that I would come and their children liked me and so they’d hand me $20 bills and send me out the door, which at that time was a lot of money. [Laugh]
But I think for me there is such potential out there in the children of this world and they have such an ability to learn and to listen to what we say and I just, it makes my heart sing.
When I was in University I ran adventure programs that were geared towards children in kindergarten through twelfth grade, so quite a large range. How to help them connect with maths, science, and engineering and it was some of the most fun I ever had.
Recently, I as well did some work, okay in recent years, so in the last five to ten years I also did some volunteer trips, where we went and worked with children and it just, they’re so much fun and there’s so much to learn from them and if I can spark something in one of them that leads them on a path that they never before thought was possible for them, that to me is one of the best gifts in the world that I can receive.
Alex: Fantastic, well if anybody wants to reach out to you and connect on that basis, or on anything that you’re doing today with regards to pricing. So what’s the best way for people to reach you?
How to get in contact with the pricing lady
Janene: Yes, so they can reach me on my Facebook page, so I have a group on there, ‘charge your worth with the pricing lady’, they can find me there and also post their questions. As well I have a freebie on offer on my website, if they go to www.janeneliston.com/tec then they can get a download of a series of videos and a checklist around what to do when your customer says, ‘that’s too expensive’.
Alex: Which I guess is a pretty common objection?
Janene: It is, it is yes. [Laugh] Absolutely.
Alex: Fantastic, so I’ll put that website down and the link in the show notes afterwards. But I just want to finish off and say Janene thank you, thank you for coming on the show. Thank you also, I just want to recognise what you do and really all the people that you help. I think you’re doing a fantastic business, think it’s really, really valuable and I just want to say thank you again.
Janene: Well thank you Alex, it was a pleasure to sit in front of you [laugh] at the workshop in Zurich and thanks to Melitta for putting us contact as well, and yes, thank you for having me on the show I really enjoyed it.
Alex: Take care, bye bye.