Johan Franzen, a Swede living in Switzerland, is proving there is entrepreneurial life after a long and successful corporate career. He’s created what he calls a “virtual swiss army knife for your entrepreneurial journey”, a platform for entrepreneurs that want to connect and be part of a trusted community of like minded business owners and specialists, exchanging resources, tips and tools. He’s given it a novel name too, www.entnest.com. We talk about the importance of community for entrepreneurs and his personal story of transition into starting a business.
Get in touch with Johan for an invitation to the platform here:
01:33 – What prompted the start of your community ?
05:01 – The connection of trusted people
07:08 – The bigger and global vision to help entrepreneurs
08:15 – How has your corporate background helped ?
15:54 – The transition from employee to entrepreneur
26:32 – Key learning points when starting a business
32:16 – Future plans and goals
Click to Read Full Transcript...
My next guest is from Sweden and he’s moved all the way over to Switzerland. In between that he had a 20-year corporate career and then gave that all up to find an online entrepreneur community IntNest, which he describes as the virtual swiss army knife for your whole entrepreneurial journey, connecting the silos and simplifying how you find the right resources to help you achieve success faster. His name Johan Franzen and he’s our next guest, let’s have a listen.
Alex: So Johan, great to see you on the show, fantastic to have you, welcome.
Johan: Thank you very much Alex, always good to see you too.
Alex: [Laugh] So, Johan, you’re originally from Sweden but you’re now based in Geneva in Switzerland. So we mustn’t confuse these two countries, I know they sound very similar. One’s got lots of snow and mountains and skiing and the other one has lots of snow, mountains and skiing, okay, but they are different. I just know people that are quite likely to confuse them.
Johan: Yes, no that’s absolutely true. Even on Spotify, which is a Swedish company, they were announced on the Nasdaq with a Swiss flag. So, –
Alex: Oh dear.
Johan: – yes, it’s a tricky one.
Alex: Oh dear, oh well [laugh]. Listen Johan, before we talk about your past, I just want to refer a little bit about you know about what’s on your website and it’s ‘entnest.com’. You’ve got this strap line there which says, ‘create your future with trusted people and tools’. I hope I’ve got that the right way round?
Alex: So, perhaps you could just explain to everybody you know what that means and perhaps explain more about the frustrations that you sensed were out there that prompted you to start this community and this network?
What prompted the start of your community and who is it for?
Johan: Yes absolutely. Well I mean right now there is so many different networks for all kinds of different audiences, right? I felt that there is a space which was empty for people who want to really create their own future and who has then, which has a combination of both community elements and marketplace.
Many of the places today are either a community or a marketplace, but there’s not that many that combines those two. So, we think that the creation element is quite a key one, I think also the more the number entrepreneurs are seriously going up everywhere. But, the percent of successful entrepreneurs is not really going up.
Yes, it’s important to try and provide a little bit extra support I think to the people who want to create their own future. Rather than, for instance, wanting to find their next career step, which is a big element out there, also.
If you look at the word trust then, I think ‘trust’ is the new currency and yes, we need to do a little bit better work at really being able to trust the different profiles we all, I’m sure receive all kinds of strange messages from people who we…yes, in many cases certainly we don’t want to trust, but it’s a matter of making sure that we have that community of people who really can trust each other. So, Entnest, as you mentioned, that’s the company name and it’s short for entrepreneurs, nest is the home of entrepreneurs.
Alex: So taking a step back then, who is this for, I think that might, you know be the big question I guess?
Johan: Yes, so Entnest is for three different types of people in organisations. The first is aspiring entrepreneurs. It can be students, it can be people working in the big multinationals but having thoughts regarding or ideas about a different way of how they want to live and create their future.
The second group is then startups, people who have actually taken the plunge and moved forward. The third group, it’s a lot of different support organisations out there. Frankly, there are millions of resources out there and they’re each in an individual silo. This is actually part of the issue that there’s not really too much handshaking going on. So, if you’re for instance, sitting in one co-working space, you’re hopefully well connected within that silo. But just next door there’s most likely today there is a coworking spaces popping everywhere, so there is a coworking space in the next quarter. If it’s from a different branch, then of course we are not automatically connected to them while there would be great opportunities most likely for you, if you simply were connected with them.
So, Entnest is the overall umbrella connecting across those different networks or platforms or silos.
Alex: Okay, it’s a place for entrepreneurs to find tools, resources, but most importantly to connect with other people as well?
The connection of trusted people
Johan: Absolutely, the connection is an excellent and very, very important piece. Having a network and really taking those connections and taking actions and also having the accountability in between the different parties. I mean some of the other big networks, platforms and so on and parting different groups of 10, 20, 50,000 even 500,000 members and for me, at least, it’s not really happening. Everybody is simply selling but there’s no buying going on, or at least it’s not very visible and obvious. So there needs to be a balance, supply and demand, offers and needs, right? If you don’t have the balance then yes, it will crash, nothing will happen.
Many of those other networks, it’s about looking good. Me pushing forward, me myself and I, right? I think it’s much, much more powerful to start from the other side of the same coin. Here I am, maybe I need who can be my great accountant in Geneva, or in New York, or in Stockholm or wherever. Then maybe somebody can recommend me to that guy; or who can help me with my logo design, or whatever it is, right?
If I want to make…I have a brownie bakery in Geneva and if I would want to set up a franchise in Paris, who can be a great person for connecting with for achieving that, for instance?
I mean it’s a lot of questions like that that you don’t really get resolved in many of the other places. So, yes, maybe we’re getting into a little bit more of my background and so on there also?
Alex: No, it’s okay, it’s okay. I mean you touched on three things, you touched you know, New York, Stockholm, Geneva.
Alex: My point was, that this is global isn’t it? I mean you’ve got a, it sounds like you’ve got a big vision here and I’d love to hear what the big overall vision here? Because you’re not aiming low I don’t think so, not you?
The bigger and global vision to help entrepreneurs
Johan: No, for sure. I’m aiming very, very big but we are in reality pretty local at this point. We worked on it for a long time, but absolutely crucial this you know is intended to be a global venture here. We do have the majority of the members around Geneva, Lausanne, but we already have members from more than 40 countries, which I am very, very pleased with. But, it’s also a case for we don’t want to try to fly before we even can walk or run, right?
So, we’re taking it slow. We are in the startup phase here and 2019 will be a very, very important year. We have worked a long time on the technical side of building this up and now comes the marketing elements. It’s going to be very exciting.
Alex: Now, you’ve got a great corporate background and how has that helped you having that background, that leadership background in you know in building a team, leading the projects and making progress on this very ambitious project?
How has your corporate background helped ?
Johan: Yes, it’s helped me in a number of different big ways and of course, I’m a little bit older, I have the grey matter on the outside of my head.
Alex: Nobody can see that, don’t worry!
Johan: [Laugh] But when I started in University and so on, then we all wanted to work for the biggest and the best companies, that was my time at University. I started working for one of the big multinationals and it’s a lot of internal training, they have all the procedures and all the different functions and so on. It’s a matter of team working and so on there; those were all great elements, right?
But, now, if you look at the younger generation and people going to the universities and so on, most of them actually are much, much more interested in creating their own future, rather than starting for the big multinationals. I think it’s an excellent school with the bigger organisations that are settled in and so on there. But, it’s a completely different drug when you are in the corporate side and the rat-race and of course you need to do whatever you can to live up to the expectations, preferably beat the expectations of employers.
Johan: That goes both for the organisation element and for the financial elements.
Alex: How has it help you then practically for this project? Because as I said, you’ve got all this experience, is it…?
Johan: Yes, [laugh] well I mean my expertise was within strategic sourcing logistics and so on. So one piece was of course finding the right team and working with an external supplier, so this was part of my expertise and I’m very, very proud to have found an excellent group in India, who does the technical development for EntNest.
But otherwise just the motivations and aspirations I think you need to be able to assist and make sure that the team really can deliver on all cylinders. So whatever it is that is needed and at this point it has been less about having a full fledged team of all the different functions that you normally have within the big organisations, since we are in the startup situation.
But it’s still always about being able to judge character, and finding really the right personality and they should of course not be the same you. I mean you need to have diversity and being able to make sure that you can really cover all bases, all angles like in a good way.
Don’t think that you can be an expert on everything yourself, you really have to rely people from different sides and with different experiences and so on. So I think that’s a really big element and in the company that I was working for, we had I think a lot of very good diversity and I appreciated, I mean I stayed with them for 20 years, even though I knew after 10 that I probably want to leave at one point in time, but 20 years is a long time with one employer.
Alex: You can say who it was, don’t worry. I think we have many listeners from that organisation here, it was…
Johan: Yes, it was Procter and Gamble, I mean it was, I think it still is, quite an excellent company. But of course it has its challenges and in today’s world it is a challenge. I think also if you look at the fact that all the companies are looking at the bottom line, right? People feel more and more nowadays that there needs to a higher purpose than for the company on top of just their shareholder value. That was also part of why I felt ownership and passion, I was one for all the things I was involved there, but still it is a different situation compared to trying to do something off your own. It was part of the beauty of what I am, what I wanted to try and achieve.
Alex: Yes, and I think with this project now, with EntNest, I mean it’s a purpose driven project and –
Johan: Very much so, very much so.
Alex: – and I think today people who are joining the workforce, starting businesses, they are a lot more in tune with purpose-driven organisations. So I think –
Johan: Absolutely, yes. Imagine if one of the other big, I don’t want to name too many organisations and so on here, but just think about all the other social networks and different marketplaces and so on. Who earns the most money from you being active on there? I think it’s the network itself, right?
So within EntNest, one of the first big pillars of purpose is we commit to give at least 51% of our future profits back to the eligible ‘EntNesters’. I think that can be a powerful element here and a total change for us is what we’re seeing in the world today.
Johan: Of course, based on that and what we already mentioned in terms of trust and so on there, trust is a big element. A big thing within EntNest is that we are and will forever be based on invitation or recommendation only. So, in order for you to get inside you will have to have a recommendation or an invitation there. You can always see who invited who, so you can follow the trail between the different people and see who has invited who and I think that is very powerful.
Alex: Fantastic, well we’re talk more about that at the end, but good to know.
The Journey from Sweden to Switzerland
Alex: So tell us about the journey here then, you know we mentioned before that you’re from Sweden and you’re in Switzerland now. So how did you end up in Switzerland?
Johan: Yes, so I did University in Sweden and after University I started working for Proctor and Gamble up in Sweden. I had the chance of moving down to Germany first, which was one of the Headquarters for P & G at that point in time.
Previously and after I had moved there, we decided to consolidate the different Headquarters in Europe and we moved that down to Geneva. So, I moved down to Geneva also with Procter & Gamble and this is where I spent most of my years and Geneva is an excellent place.
We love it, we’re still staying around even though I left six years ago now. I have a Swedish wife, we have two boys, 24 and 19. Both of them have actually left the home now and actually both of them are up in the Netherlands. The oldest one has ended his Bachelor and started his own company. So I guess he’s taking after his Father to some extent there then. Dangerous thing! [Laugh] The young one has just started on this Bachelor at the Erasmus University also up there in Rotterdam, so…
Alex: Fantastic. So you’re empty nesters then?
Johan: Exactly, exactly and at home it’s a completely different, we are very spoilt and happy also after the kids have moved out, but it’s a very different lifestyle of course, so that too.
Alex: So tell us about this transition, because you know you’ve gone from, something has driven you to go from this ‘the corporate drug’ as you call it [laugh] to this entrepreneurial drug. So, what is that, what did that mean for you that transition?
The transition from employee to entrepreneur
Johan: Well, what it meant was really relearning a lot of different things and really different a drug has different [laugh] implications, I guess. I mean when you are in a big company of course, the fact that you have all kinds of different functions and big teams and so on around you. You are doing your piece, your one element in the big machine, right? That was really the biggest and the hardest learning I would say at the beginning.
Then where you’re jumping into the cold water and you had better learn to swim very fast. Yes, it’s a challenge and I think also it’s tricky because it’s so overwhelming, there are millions of resources and it’s the world trying to assist you but it’s very hard to take it in and know what is good and if I need something like this then should I go this way, or should I go that way? It was a lot was a lot of relearning I would say, what was, yes –
Alex: I was going ask you that now in fact? What were personally for you the biggest struggles as you were setting up the business?
Johan: I would say, yes I mean in the business for the big corporate, most of the things were outlined, right? Of course, we were working on the strategies and on the details and so on. But, it was still to a large extent after we had gone quite far Proctor and Gambles is yes, more than 150 years old and yes, we developed new brands and all kinds of different things.
But, Entnest is zero, it was zero years old, right? So, it’s a matter of really starting from the bottom and as I said, when you are in a big company, you normally have your expertise function and so on. Mine was within strategic sourcing, supplies your management or logistics and so on. I had never been in sales or marketing or legal or HR or anything like that, right?
So there was a lot of –
Alex: A bit lonely? [Laugh]
Johan: Yes, yes a bit lonely. But I think also you have to be open and realistic that you can never be an expert by yourself on everything. So, this is one of the key recommendations I would say for people who think that maybe they have a great idea, but their too concerned about sharing it with different and fear of others sort of ripping their idea and so on.
But I think it’s what I’m saying normally is the idea is basically worthless until you can really prove that you can implement and move forward on it and that’s when it starts to become interesting.
So, at the beginning I would definitely recommend almost sharing with as many as you can and even no matter how much you share about it there, it’s still in your head and you won’t be able to put all your ideas around it in one piece. So I think there’s very, very little risk that you will feel ripped off and if you can rather get a team of different people, different functions who can assist, you have a much, much better chance of succeeding. Of course, once you want to go for funding and everything, it’s a much stronger to show that you have a team, rather than that here’s an individual, crazy entrepreneur. You need to be able to show that you can work together.
Alex: So building a team obviously was a huge thing as you were going through. This idea of validating the idea, I mean was that difficult as well at the beginning, because obviously you had this idea in your head but you had to go out and prove that it had legs?
Johan: Yes, yes that’s absolutely true but I wouldn’t even take one step further back first. Because when after 10 years that I started thinking that yes, I do want to move to something new, I started already planning and my thinking was creating a consultancy within my area of expertise.
So that’s what I moved forward on, I did all the work and so on for that, but in the process of doing that I talked with so many other aspiring entrepreneurs, established entrepreneurs and support organisations. We all said the same thing, it’s way too difficult so there needs to be a better way and easier way for entrepreneurs to become successful, or have a better shot at becoming successful.
So, yes, I had basically validated the idea of the consulting, but instead of knocking on the door for the, which is the big commerce and so on for that. I decided hey, this is too good of an opportunity to miss, so I put that on the shelf, it’s still on the shelf and I moved forward with this Entnest idea because of all the issues that I saw out there. So, the validation was almost part of the absolute initial idea creation there, right? The fact that yes, there are all these different silos and so on and we need to make it an umbrella element in there and connecting across all of those different things.
I worked with a lot of different people, a number of different mentors at different stages. People who had excellent experiences from each of the different elements in there and because, as we said, you can’t be an expert on everything. So talk to the people who are interested and utilise the expertise of people who have had the right experience, right? You wouldn’t talk hair style with your accountant, right? So it’s…
Alex: Exactly. I mean I was going to ask you that question about the support you got, so you know you mentioned mentors or experts that you’ve worked with, which is fantastic.
Alex: You know I think a lot of people don’t realise that when you’re setting up a new business becoming an entrepreneur, it’s a new career. You need to reach out and tap into the expertise of people you have been there before.
Alex: Because you know just to save you time and money, I think.
Johan: Absolutely, absolutely. So yes, you can’t be an expert on everything as I said and it’s not only while you’re in school that it is good to have teachers. I mean even Roger Fedar I’m sure has a guy for improving his backhand, or whatever it is.
I think teachers and mentors, coaches, whatever you call them. I mean even the biggest business gurus, I’m quite sure that they have people that they want to use for discussions and so on there. I think it’s always much more powerful, you can be good maybe even great by yourself, but you can definitely not be excellent. You have to have people around you. So it’s the key piece.
Alex: My children keep asking me you know, so when are we going to start learning at school? I said, I tell them, ‘well listen I’m still learning’, I’m not so sure if that’s an encouraging thing to tell them. Because they go, ‘oh my God is it never going to stop?’
Johan: Yes exactly. ‘L’, ‘L’, ‘L’, so lifelong-learning, right? So it’s not only the ‘W’, ‘W’, ‘W’ for world-wide-web, but lifelong-learning for sure is really crucial. I think it’s more about that whole journey, the building the experience as you move forward. Of course you pick up and hopefully maybe you can drop a few things and so on also. But, it’s a long and winding road, and it’s I would say also within the corporate and other elements, it’s a rollercoaster ride there too, but I think the rollercoaster is much smoother within the big companies.
When you are an entrepreneur, you will have very high peaks and very low valleys on that journey I can tell you. Yes, so it’s important and it’s of course very important also to have supporting people around you. I mean I would never have been able to do this unless my wife would let me, basically. Really be supportive and so on there, so I appreciate that.
Alex: Fantastic, well let’s acknowledge her here and say thank you to her.
Johan: Yes, thank you so much.
Alex: Listen, when you wrote me you gave me this amazing quote, which I just want to share now and that was, ‘Shared happiness is double the happiness and shared burden is half the burden’.
Alex: Brilliant. Could you expand and that?
Inspiration as an entrepreneur
Johan: Yes, I think that’s really what it is. I mean if you can share the opportunities and so on there, the happiness of progress and so on, the whole team is going to get so much happier. If you have an issue, if you can really sort that out by putting a few more hands into it, it’s going to get so much easier. So, yes, everything comes back to really connections, networking, finding the right people. I would also say, ‘nothing is stronger than its weakness link’. I mean the weakest link is extremely serious of course, but I think it’s really a two-stage. You need to find the right people, the positive people that can bring energy to the table, rather than taking it and we need to be realistic of course, but it’s very important also to shoot for the stars and have ambition. If you’re going to deliver something really great, it’s not sufficient to just look around your feet. You have to lift your eyes a little bit further.
Alex: That’s great, that’s a great lesson and I think that it’s a big encouragement for entrepreneurs starting up, also a lesson to remember that there’s no such thing as a ‘self-made’ entrepreneur.
Alex: It’s a load of rubbish, you have to help people, you have to let people help in your journey. I think with what you’re creating on that platform is really encouraging that. Listen, so are there any other perhaps one or two key learnings that you’ve picked up on this journey that you think that you can pass on to someone that’s setting up a business. Someone that’s perhaps away from their home country, anything that would encourage them on a practical basis that perhaps you could share?
Key learning points when starting a business
Johan: Well, I think we’ve mentioned a number of things, a lot of big quotes in there. I think another one, ‘a rising tide lifts all the boats’. I think I actually picked that up from Melitta Gamble who is one of your previous people on this show. I really like her a lot, I’ve connected with her since the interview that you did with her.
Alex: Oh fantastic.
Johan: Yes, so yes, it really is about those connections there. Connecting with the right people, don’t spend your energy on people who are sort of not interested or having not the right experience that you’re looking for.
The weakest link we mentioned, I think trust is the new currency, is quite clearly you need to build on that. Maybe another one, I think coding is really a super-power. We haven’t talked about that.
Johan: My, the EntNest is a lot about the technicalities of the digital side of it. So, I would urge anybody, I think it goes for no matter what you want to do in the future, coding is the super-power. I’m absolutely not an expert, I’ve never done any of it, but I have picked up a few things and when I started I looked around WordPress and started doing a few things and seeing if this could work for me. I very quickly realised that yes, I have the grey matters on the outside of head nowadays. So, –
Alex: You realised it was a super-power best in the hands of a –
Johan: Yes, somebody –
Alex: or experts.
Johan: Yes exactly, that’s an excellent idea [laugh]. But yes, again anything really. If you can think it, then it can be created. Also, action is quite a key element and I think a lot of people are talking…actually I came up with the idea for Netflix but I could of course never do it. So I think we all have great ideas, but as long as you can’t really implement it, it’s not going to be worth anything.
Johan: Now kudos to the people who do take the action and get things done. Becoming and being accountable I think is another piece. I mean today there is too little acton and too little accountability. So, we need to build a little bit further in those two fields and yes, if you’re in a big group in one of the other networks and so on, I think it’s very difficult to get really to the accountability. I think people are still hunter-gatherers to a large extent and if you have small group of I don’t know, 10 or 20 people, an effective woolpack then you will keep each other honest and accountable.
So if I tell you by next week I’m going to have my new logo for my company and you ask me the next time, then I’m much more inclined to actually have it done. Rather than, me sort of sitting there in my own chamber and yes, I should actually have a new logo, but yes.
Alex: That’s a great one. I mean how did you manage that for yourself, how did you keep yourself accountable?
Johan: Well it comes back to the team again and making sure that you have a roadmap, a plan of what you want to achieve by when. It’s not about notoriously keeping to everything and just because you said, I mean things change also. You need to be adaptable and agile to do different things there. But, still at least having something that points in the direction of where you’re going.
Of course, I think also it depends on what kind of company you’re trying start. If it is another restaurant, or something completely new and novel, or whatever. I mean the question is also do you need a map, or do you need a compass? So I think you need to consider different things like that. Also, we know that we’re going in this particular direction, but yes, there can be lots of valleys and mountains in between, as I said.
Many times that you feel that, yes, I’ve reached the top of this mountain here now, but it’s only from the top that you see the next mountain, that you didn’t do and realise was there afterwards. So, you have to basically go from first having some insight on an issue, developing your idea, coming up with a plan, validating it, and so on. Those are all different mountains, so I refer to me basically as the entrepreneurship mountain guide, that’s what I think I would like to do.
Alex: Like a sherpa?
Johan: Exactly, exactly. We’re assisting, we’re carrying and –
Johan: – and EntNest is basically the virtual swiss-army-knife there for you. So, it’s a toolbox of different elements and just because it’s there, it doesn’t mean that you have to utilise it all at the same time, right? So, it’s like a [00:31:46 Inaudible] table, just because it’s there –
Alex: That you need.
Johan: Exactly, exactly. So now I want to go to an event, what are the events that I can look at today, instead of trying to look all over the internet and try and find whatever it is.
Alex: We like that, anything that makes our lives simpler.
Alex: – that’s all great stuff for entrepreneurs.
Johan: Yes, yes.
Alex: Listen Johan, what’s coming up next, what are you planning for the future, what are your goals?
The future plans and goals
Johan: Yes, so, so far we’ve been focusing basically staying under the radar and focusing geographically on Geneva and surroundings. But, we’re coming up to towards 2019 and during 2019 we have set a target of 10 different countries where we want to really focus on. So, of course first going beyond Geneva and Lausanne in Switzerland, but then also going to further countries. We have already approached the next country which will be the Netherlands, by the way, that we will be focusing on. Of course, we’re not excluding anybody. So, if anybody is interested from any country then of course, that’s quite possible. But, our focus area would be a couple of the small countries going forward. We’re not shooting for the big ones.
I think another interesting element is a lot of people talk about getting an MVP, Minimum Viable Product out there as soon as possible.
I think there’s risks with that also, you can I think quite easily damage your own idea and ambition and so on by people not understanding what it is that you tried to achieve. So putting something out there too quick I think is dangerous, and that’s also why we’re not going to target the US or England or Germany or France, or so in the next round.
We’re shooting for a few of the smaller countries first, to make sure that we have really got our stuff together and that it will work and so on and then building further from there. I think that’s of course a. –
Alex: Fantastic, sounds like you have a plan, which is fantastic.
Johan: [Laugh] I do, yes. We’re happy with that and yes, it’s going to be very, very exciting year, 2019. I think this is the year when it will happen and we will move forward big time.
Alex: Well, when at the beginning of the interview you mentioned that people can actually have a look at the system. It’s on an invitation basis only, but there is a way for them to get your attention. So what would you suggest if someone’s interested to find out more, where should they go and what should they do?
Information if you would like to get in contact
Johan: Yes, so, the website is www.entnest.com that’s where you go. It’s a very simple page that you arrive at. You have two buttons, basically ‘apply’ or ‘login’. You can click on the apply and in there then you fill-in a few of the details. But in order for you to actually see the inside, you have to have somebody recommending you. So, if you go in apply, and search for recommenders and you search for ‘Entnest’ you find my profile and if you have written a bit about yourself in there then I will put my trust in you and I will approve that. I will make sure that you know we can see where we can move forward. So, inspiring entrepreneurs.
Alex: They can mention that you know you heard about it on the podcast and so will get your attention and they’ll be able to get in, okay.
Johan: Yes, and I’m really pleased of course to see you in there also. I think there’s a lot of opportunities for you to continue to do interviews with a number of interesting entrepreneurs. You’ve already done a number of them I think in there, so that’s really, really excellent.
Alex: Indeed and I’m going to put that website on the show notes as well, when we put the episode out, so everyone can see that.
Alex: Fantastic. Listen Johan, I just want to say thank you and acknowledge what you’re doing. I think you’re doing a fantastic job, I think you’re doing it for reasons you know much bigger than yourself, it’s a great thing that you’re doing. So, you know, thank you very much and let’s do this again sometime in the future. I’m sure you’ll be in a completely different stage, but thank you again so much for coming on and talking about your experience.
Johan: Yes, thank you very much Alex. This was excellent, so I look forward to our next talk and hearing a number of your other podcasts, I think they are very, very good and very insightful and always good to get the learnings from the other people too.
Alex: Brilliant, thanks Johan.
Johan: Thank you very much, take care.